"Premananda Dasa"  wrote:
>What you expressed in this message shows that you haven´t understood what
>the Name of God is, nor the revealed process/method of chanting it.

I don't know what it _shows_, or how you are going to interpret my
words. I also don't know what is revealed as a method or not. I care
about what is real, what makes sense and what works. If a method is
tested in real life conditions, its results can be observed and from
that statistical sample conclusions about the validity of a method can
be drawn. 
An example. A method of fast learning is invented and advertised.
According to the advertisements, learning speed should be increased by
70%. How do we determine if the method is actually that good? We test
it in laboratory conditions first, then in real life conditions, and
if the results justify its application, the method can be approved as
good. So, what do I decide if a method which is meant to increase
learning speed actually _decreases_ it, and creates mental imbalance
in 45% of the practitioners? I'll decide that it's dangerous and
non-functional. I don't care in which book it's recommended, it simply
sucks.

>The revealed scriptures and the lineage of gurus coming in the succession
from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu (the avatara of Krishna in Kali-yuga) have
>explained that the Names in the maha-mantra are non-different from God
>Himself. That is, by performing mantra-japa or nama-kirtana one gradually
>becomes aware of the Form, Qualities and Pastimes of Sri Krishna. To
>repetitively chant the maha-mantra is to be immersed in God-consciousness,
>if it is done properly, without offences.

It sounds great. Excellent. If you only knew what you just stated
here, you'd wake up in the middle of the night, screaming. Allow me to
demonstrate.

p-a1. God is absolute
p-a2. God's name is non-different from God
-----
c-a.  God's name is absolute

p-b1. In absolute the quantity is irrelevant
c-a.  God's name is absolute
-----
c-b.  In God's name quantity is irrelevant.

p-c1. The absolute transcends time and space.
p-b1. In absolute the quantity is irrelevant
-----
c-c.  Every occurrence of the absolute transcends time and space.

c-c.  Every occurrence of the absolute transcends time and space.
c-a.  God's name is absolute
-----
c-d.  God's name transcends time and space.

And now, allow me to say what it means. I came to the conclusion that
God's name transcends time, space and quantity. That means that for n
repetitions, where n = [1..oo>, the same result is achieved.
Basically, one repetition of the mantra is as good as the infinite
number of repetitions, because mantra transcends quantity, since it's
quality is absolute. Therefore if mantra is said only once, it creates
the absolute result. If the absolute result isn't achieved the first
time, the mantra wasn't said. (which is what I stated in the first
message, if you read carefully)

Now, let's introduce another premise. The quality of the results shows
the quality of the means. Chanting mantra is the means. The spiritual
state of the practitioners can therefore show what it is good for.

First, let me see if all those premises are valid, just to make sure.
:)

One of the basic tests of each method is its effectiveness. If it
works, use it, if not, drop it. Prabhupada often recommended his
method using this argument: showing his students as an example of the
effectiveness of the method. He also criticized other methods from the
same ground: he said that they didn't work, that practitioners of
other techniques are just sleeping on their courses and the results of
it all are trivial. So, it looks like this criteria is acceptable to
ISKCON, if not GV (abbrev. Gaudiya Vaisnava). I don't know how
acceptable Prabhupada's claims and methods are to the official GV
circles, but judging on the fact that Prabhupada is considered rather
orthodox in those circles, I'm free to conclude that the same measures
would be seen as valid there, as well.

Maha-mantra, well known to you, which I won't write here since at this
point I can't back it up, is absolute, and reflects God's inner
nature. With that I agree. This is the purusottama mantra, it invokes
the highest attributes of Krsna, son of Devaki and Vasudeva, Adi
Purusa, Purusa Uttama. If someone is able to say that mantra, he will
instantly become aware of that. That's simply how it works. I'll let
your imagination determine the probable state of spirit of the person
who is observing God's inner being. 

Whatever you imagined is necessarily worse than the real thing,
because your imagination is relative and God is absolute. It's always
better than anything you can possibly imagine. It's even better than
what you _can't_ imagine. :)

The qualities of the absolute reflect upon the relative. In the
relative, therefore, we can observe certain qualities that resemble
the absolute, but they are unsteady, changing, they come and go as the
wind in the branches. Those qualities are intelligence, love,
awareness, creativity, and many others. By observing the essence of
those qualities we can get a vague impression on what God's nature can
feel like; since all those qualities are, poetically said, a shadow
which God casts upon the Creation. Some of His nature is reflected in
that, but none of those qualities separately, nor all of them
together, gives you the exact idea of God. It just gets you close
enough to scream, realizing what you're missing.

As you can see, I'm working from philosophical, not theological
premises, I don't quote the scriptures to prove my point, I quote
reality to prove my point. Both reality and the scriptures can be
misinterpreted (as scientists misinterpret reality, the religious
freaks misinterpret the scriptures, and they both do it very
professionally:). Both methods have their advantages and
disadvantages, but I prefer the philosophical approach, since it is
independent on the distortions and misinterpretations common in all
religions. The view of reality can be distorted, but unlike a book, it
can't be faked, adjusted or destroyed, reality just is, and the only
problem is whether we can see what it is, or not. So, I work from a
premise that both reality and scriptures are reflections of God's
nature and intent, and observing the nature of the reality is a good
start.

Be patient with me here, we're almost there. :) (says Papa Smurf)

We can simplify the view of the universe by presuming that it's nature
consists of two basic forces: Divine and material. The quality of the
matter (where the term 'matter' has to be taken in a very wide
meaning) is inertia. Left to its own, the matter is inert, it lacks
creativity, love, intelligence, beauty... actually it sucks, it lacks
everything that's cool. Everything that's cool comes from God. :) So
the logical conclusion is that if we follow the cool, we'll come to
its origin, which is God. The only question is what is cool, and what
sucks. People obviously have different concepts of cool. :) Therefore
it's not easy to determine which qualities are Divine and which are
'material', because it's mostly neither black nor white, but some
shade of gray. It seems that perfection is impossible in the imperfect
world, but one can get damn close to it. For instance Mike Oldfield's
music. The Divine qualities _can_ be manifested, and people _do_
manifest them, those are facts; there are people whose ability to
subdue the natural inertia of the matter to the will of their spirit
highly exceeds the average, people like Nikola Tesla, Bach,
Vivekananda and others. It's not about what they _say_, or write. It's
about who they are, and how they affect the world with their presence.
Creativity. It's the ability to introduce a new element, something
that wasn't there before. You improve things. Conscience. The ability
to feel what's right and what's wrong, and do what's right. Love. The
ability to transcend separation and difference, and introduce unity of
spirit. Those qualities. It's not carved in stone, that's why I use
the unconventional terms like 'cool'. It's weird, but actually it
comes closest to what I'm trying to point to. People who are in touch
with God are cool. They are way, way cool. They are so cool that you
want to kiss their ass, just to be there by them. :) I think I made my
point. :)

I think Prabhupada agrees with me, from what he wrote it is apparent
that he, too, thought that connection with God manifests in a person's
life, improving it dramatically; the symptoms of Krsna consciousness.
The Divine qualities should become more present, and the material
qualities are supposed to vanish. A person is supposed to achieve that
by means of japa and kirtana. OK.

How it looks to me? It looks like this: people start chanting the
mantra. It's all new: they accept the new clothing, behavior,
everything, they like it, it makes them feel special. They feel like
they found their way, everything makes sense to them. So, for the
first couple of months, or years, everything is perfect. They display
all the symptoms of enlightenment... err... except some; they were
never creative. Prabhupada always had to supervise everything because
the students could implement his will once he clearly stated it and
gave them direct orders, but they weren't creative. There was no
initiative. That's what happens when you imitate: you can follow all
the rules you know. But if you come to a situation where you don't
know the rules, you become confused and inactive, you think that it's
better to do nothing, than to be creative and risk "falling from
grace". It's like having a book in which falling of the objects is
described. If a red brick falls from ten meters height, it will drop
with the speed v1. If a concrete block falls from five meters, it will
drop with v2, etc. But if one follows such rules, and he has a pink
elephant with yellow spots hanging in the air on 2m height, and
there's nothing in the book about pink elephants with yellow spots on
2m height, he'll probably think that the elephant will keep levitating
there, because the method for falling isn't implemented in the
elephant. :) 
What am I trying to say?
The creativity comes from the realization of the basic principle, from
which the individual rules are derived. If there is no realization,
people will stay dependent on books with specific examples, but they
will be unable to improvise.

I will not even attempt to describe the spiritual and physical
condition of the ISKCON members, because friends from pada were kind
enough to rake all the muck for me, and most of the messages on this
NG consist of that. :) Now, their conclusion would probably be that
the fallen guys didn't follow the principles, they didn't chant
enough, they didn't distribute Prabhupada's books enough, and
therefore they've fallen into bla bla whatever. I have a simpler
explanation. The method is worthless. It doesn't work. They could
imitate the results for a while, but the imitation is demanding and
tiresome and they grew weary of it, so at one point they started
acting naturally - for the distorted condition of their system, of
course. Since they've programmed themselves into thinking that women
are stupid geese who tempt righteous men into sin, they naturally
turned gay, they found themselves some guy or a kid to have sex with,
it's a logical consequence of the programming. It's the same with
everything else. The conclusion is that the method didn't have any
lasting positive effects, but it had lasting negative effects that are
very visible all over the Internet and everywhere else. You tell me
that folks get enlightened by following the method - prove it! Give me
evidence. A statistically relevant number of people who practiced the
method and achieved enlightenment - the real one, the guy has to be
far superior in creativity, love and personal brilliance compared to
the average human being.

By one saying of the mantra they were supposed to become enlightened.
And I agree, the mantra really does that. Only they never said it.
They just repeated the words without the background and imagined the
results because they desperately wanted it to work. It didn't and now
they are human ruins. Very bad for health. ;)

>Even the transcendentalists who are consciousness of God in His impersonal
>Brahman aspect are attracted to the highest conception of God as the Supreme
>Person when they hear of it.

Do you have any real life examples of that, besides Kumaras on their
visit to Vaikuntha? ;)

>You claim that you have initiated persons, but the experts of Transcendental
>science would never agree with that. 

:))) Show me one expert on Transcendental science. :)

>The only thing you have achieved is a
>worldly position that is very pleasing to the ego.

:)))) Is there a mirror somewhere in front of you, that gives you a
clear look of the person you're describing? :)

>All real gurus are connected with a sampradaya, such as the Gaudiya
>sampradaya or Shri sampradaya, etc. Any mantra which is not received in a
>sampradaya is fruitless. This is the verdict of Shastra.
>'sampradaya-vihina ye mantras te nisphala matah'

Fro.m what I can see, the fruits of that sampradaya are poisonous.
People get emotionally, mentally and physically sick. Not to mention
moral corruption. I loathe it utterly.

>If you have any questions, don´t hesitate to ask.

Oh, I just might do that. ;)

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Web (Kundalini-yoga): http://danijel.cjb.net