"Premananda Dasa"  wrote:

>Danijel,
>
>Some comments on your neophyte observations.

:))

>>How do we determine if the method is actually that good? We test
>>it in laboratory conditions first, then in real life conditions, and
>>if the results justify its application, the method can be approved as
>>good. So, what do I decide if a method which is meant to increase
>>learning speed actually _decreases_ it, and creates mental imbalance
>>in 45% of the practitioners? I'll decide that it's dangerous and
>>non-functional. I don't care in which book it's recommended, it simply
>>sucks.
>
>You say that the process of chanting Harinama simply sucks. This means that
>you criticize the direct teachings of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu - God.

That is only partially true. I _observe_ that the _results_ of the
method suck. To disprove that, you have to either prove that my
observations are wrong, and the results don't suck, or you have to
apply a different approach and say that the original method given by
Caitanya is good and gave excellent results when it was practiced
correctly (for that you can probably quote evidence), but in the
meantime something was either lost or misinterpreted and thus the
problems. 

>You immediately come to the conclusion that the method of chanting is
>defect. 

This conclusion is inescapable. No evidence was given to prove that it
has any positive effects, and the evidence that backs my thesis is
provided daily by the method's very practitioners.

>But I say that the people who have mental imbalances, had it before
>starting to chant Harinama maha-mantra. 

That would be impossible to prove, I'm afraid, and even if you managed
to do it, you would dig your own grave, because if chanting the mantra
wasn't able to cure those imbalances (you yourself advertised it as
more-less omnipotent), then you proved the very point you find so
offensive, and that is the inefficiency of the method.
You can say that nobody can chant it without offence because everyone
is materially contaminated, and then again you prove my point that
they never said the mantra, they just said the words because they
weren't pure enough to touch the essence, which is Krsna. 

If those who aren't pure can't be purified by it, then it's no method,
it's the goal. It's like saying the following:
"The rich people live in Monte Carlo. Therefore, if you want to be
rich, go to Monte Carlo and live there."

Now, you didn't do much if someone listens to you, comes to Monte
Carlo and lives the life of a beggar on the street, and if he then
asks you how come he isn't rich, you tell him that he wasn't rich
enough to practice the method. :)

>And how did they perform the
>chanting? Was it free from Namaparadha? If not, then their chanting will not
>give the desired result. You hastily conclude that the ISKCON devotees you
>have observed performed mantra-japa perfectly. But it isn´t necessarily so.

 I don't know how they performed anything, I simply observe the
condition of their minds, energy flows and bodies. 
They are powered by anger and hate. Of course, they'll quote some
scripture in which such behavior is justified, like, it's good to spit
all over your enemies if they're the really bad demons or mayavadis or
ritviks or GBC homosexuals or whatever. But from what I see, they are
so drained, so utterly devastated as persons, that intense negative
motivations are the only thing that gives them enough power to keep
existing. There's no love, no bliss, no ecstasy of realization,
nothing, just talk about those things, but anger and hate are real,
they can stimulate them. Spit on the enemy and feel good. Maybe you'll
even convince yourself that you're good for something. That kind of
thinking. This is serious pranic and astral imbalance, and it is close
to serious illness and death. All the natural pranic flows were closed
with the strict regulations, but the higher ones that are supposed to
substitute them were not opened - lower joys were prohibited, but the
higher ones are missing, and the only joy in life is imagined,
virtual. Let's pretend to be happy, smile for the tourists. But your
pranic system breaks, you dry up and die, and before that you become a
twisted shadow of your former being. Those are the results which I
have observed in _all_ Hare Krishna communities that I've met.
What was I supposed to conclude, that the method is good but nobody
did it well? It's more likely that it is totally wrong, that the
entire approach sucks.

>>Basically, one repetition of the mantra is as good as the infinite
>>number of repetitions, because mantra transcends quantity, since it's
>>quality is absolute. Therefore if mantra is said only once, it creates
>>the absolute result. If the absolute result isn't achieved the first
>>time, the mantra wasn't said. (which is what I stated in the first
>>message, if you read carefully)
>
>Yes, but if you don´t get the absolute result the first time, will you quit
>repeting the mantra?

It depends on how smart I am. If I'm smart and I use my head, I'll
think about what "God's name" means, and what it means to invoke God's
name. Maybe I'll figure out that quantity doesn't matter and that I
should concentrate on the quality. And maybe when I realize the depth
of the implications, I won't dare say it in vain. But when I say it
for the first time, I'll get the absolute result.

>And even if one gets the absolute result the first time, that is no reason
>for stopping to chant. 

:) Yes there is, when you get bread in the store, you don't have to
keep repeating "bread please". :) You say "thank you". :)

>Rather the opposite. When you realize the absolute
>nature of the Holy Name you will desire to chant it all the time! Since you
>have no experience of it you can not understand.

:)))

>>ISKCON, if not GV (abbrev. Gaudiya Vaisnava). I don't know how
>>acceptable Prabhupada's claims and methods are to the official GV
>>circles, but judging on the fact that Prabhupada is considered rather
>>orthodox in those circles, I'm free to conclude that the same measures
>>would be seen as valid there, as well.
>
>You don´t know much do you Danijel?
>First of all: Bhaktivedanta Swami is not accepted as an orthodox Vaisnava in
>the Gaudiya Vaisnava circles. The majority of Gaudiya Vaisnavas don´t accept
>the ISKCON parampara as valid. They have deviated in many ways from the pure
>teachings and practices of the religion.

:)) I foresee an interesting flame war going your way. :)

>>Maha-mantra, well known to you, which I won't write here since at this
>>point I can't back it up, is absolute, and reflects God's inner
>>nature. With that I agree. This is the purusottama mantra, it invokes
>>the highest attributes of Krsna, son of Devaki and Vasudeva,
>
>The highest attributes of the Absolute are not found in the son of Vasudeva
>and Devaki but in Krishna as the son of Nanda and Yasoda in Goloka
>Vrindavan.

:)) You probably saw them both and compared. :)) Then you said "you,
Krsna son of Devaki and Vasudeva, piss off, you're inferior". :)))

>>I think Prabhupada agrees with me, from what he wrote it is apparent
>>that he, too, thought that connection with God manifests in a person's
>>life, improving it dramatically; the symptoms of Krsna consciousness.
>>The Divine qualities should become more present, and the material
>>qualities are supposed to vanish. A person is supposed to achieve that
>>by means of japa and kirtana. OK.
>
>Yes, and if it isn´t achieved it is wrong to conclude (as you do) that it is
>the method, the religion, which is imperfect. The practitioners are not
>performing their sadhana properly, there are offences in the chanting, such
>as inattentiveness, material desires, sadhu-ninda, etc.

:)) OK, so we agree that those who are not perfectly enlightened can't
chant God's name. :)

>>Now, their conclusion would probably be that
>>the fallen guys didn't follow the principles, they didn't chant
>>enough, they didn't distribute Prabhupada's books enough, and
>>therefore they've fallen into bla bla whatever. I have a simpler
>>explanation. The method is worthless. It doesn't work.
>
>Are you stupid or are just playing the devil´s advocate here again?

No, I'm just a stupid devil's advocate here. :)))

>Have you met any Indian Gaudiya Vaisnavas? 

I met one's student, and he was no different from ISKCON members in
any way. And you, too, are proving my point excellently. ;)

>Have you met Srila Vishnudas
>Babaji? Have you met Srila Jiva Gosvami? These persons are so full of the
>love of God that you would become inspired by simply meeting them for a few
>seconds. These great souls, among others, are following the method of
>chanting harinama as revealed by Sriman Mahaprabhu. And it evidently _does_
>work!

 :)))))

>Your childish conclusions are based simply upon observations of a bunch of
>Western ISKCON members. Hardly a scientific way of obtaining knowledge in
>order to be able to come to a proper understanding and conclusion about the
>validity of the method of chanting the Maha-mantra!

:)))) As long as your kindness and spiritual magnitude prove me wrong,
I remain content in firm belief that Indian GV are different from
Western GV. :)
(from the info I got, they are different, but probably worse)

>>The conclusion is that the method didn't have any
>>lasting positive effects, but it had lasting negative effects that are
>>very visible all over the Internet and everywhere else. You tell me
>>that folks get enlightened by following the method - prove it! Give me
>>evidence. A statistically relevant number of people who practiced the
>>method and achieved enlightenment - the real one, the guy has to be
>>far superior in creativity, love and personal brilliance compared to
>>the average human being.
>
>My advice is: Go to India and meet real Vaishnavas. 

:) I was in India last year and I really lack any desire to repeat
that. ;) If you want my analysis, I'll be happy to provide.

>>>Even the transcendentalists who are consciousness of God in His impersonal
>>>Brahman aspect are attracted to the highest conception of God as the
>>>Supreme Person when they hear of it.
>>
>>Do you have any real life examples of that, besides Kumaras on their
>>visit to Vaikuntha? ;)
>
>Of course. I was an impersonalist myself.

:) I can imagine how you define an impersonalist, I call them just
atheists, it makes it simpler to classify things.

>>>The only thing you have achieved is a
>>>worldly position that is very pleasing to the ego.
>>
>>:)))) Is there a mirror somewhere in front of you, that gives you a
>>clear look of the person you're describing? :)
>
>What you have written is reflecting what you are like.

:)))

>>From what I can see, the fruits of that sampradaya are poisonous.
>>People get emotionally, mentally and physically sick. Not to mention
>>moral corruption. I loathe it utterly.
>
>You are really an offensive, deranged person if you say that the whole
>Gaudiya Vaisnava religion is poisonous.

Ahh, you pure bhaktas, you just keep flattering... 
 :)))))))))))))

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