chekitan@bahnhof.se (Jahnu) wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Sep 1999 12:35:57 GMT, dturina@geocities.com (Danijel
>Turina),wrote:
>
>>There were some people who said that they would want to prove me
>>wrong, if they had time, but as time passes nothing seems to happen,
>>except a few traditional flames between two groups of Prabhupada's
>>disciples, who indulge in name calling and dramatical statements.
>>
>>
>>So, shall we dance? ;)
>
>Sure, any time. It'll be my pleasure. What would you like to discuss?

Well, I thought that my previous postings made my position quite
clear, but I'll try to sum it up. The basic principle that I
introduced was judgment by the criteria of the fruits. That means that
the value of some system of belief can be determined by the spiritual
condition of its followers; their spiritual condition can most often
be determined by their deeds. I also said that it seems to me that
Prabhupada used that very same criteria to defend his philosophy: he
said that his disciples uphold the highest spiritual laws, that their
lives are balanced etc. - and therefore I guess that this criteria
would be considered acceptable.
The method of chanting mahamantra is advertised as the "highest form
of yoga", because it brings souls directly to Krsna, who is the
highest goal. The power of the mantra is also very clearly stated, it
is said that even one saying of the mantra will change a person's
life, and it will soon bring one to perfection.
Stating that, I asked people from the Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition how
they explain the obvious lack of any spiritual value in the
practitioners of the method - all sorts of accusations and
name-calling over Internet is enough evidence - and I got, to put it
very mildly - very questionable arguments (meaning: they started
telling me what an ignorant idiot I am), without even bothering to
consider my arguments.
From. the bits of incoherent response that I got, I isolated two
directions in which the defense of the method could go. One is that
the practitioners committed offence in chanting, and the other is that
practitioners who are charged with morally questionable deeds were
spiritually impaired to begin with, so they weren't really practicing
the method, etc.
Then I said that this type of argument signs the death certificate to
the method, because yoga is a process. It is the process that purifies
the impure. Prabhupada quoted the example of Sri Narada, who was a
servant's son, and who was purified by the company of pure bhaktas and
by eating the remains of their food. From that it is visible that the
method works if it's capable of purification; if someone needs to be
completely pure to practice the method, then it is not the method, but
the description of the goal, and can't be applied to the people who
aren't enlightened enough to begin with.
I argued from the position that mahamantra is indeed a key to the
highest spiritual state, but it can hardly be called a method of
purification, because it consists of constantly invoking God's inner
attributes which are unattainable by the "ordinary people". Because of
the seriousness of the situation (in ISKCON and similar organizations
there seems to be very little going on besides poisonous quarrels) I
think it would be wise to identify the problem, so it could be solved.
Also, I saw that there's a great deal of self-indulgence in GV
philosophy, and very little ability to defend something from a
position of true understanding. I met ISKCON members in person, and
their arguments were always easily broken; but they didn't find that
to be a real problem, they just said that if I met some senior
devotee, a pure bhakta, that all my doubts would be gone and I would
somehow be filled with Krsna consciousness. Now, when someone breaks
my arguments in two sentences and with great ease, I get worried and I
usually start learning fast, because something is really wrong with my
system. If there really were such "senior devotees" who fill people
with understanding, and my friend from ISKCON knew them, _he_ would be
filled with Krsna consciousness and then his consciousness would
supposedly be wide enough not to snap like a twig on the first sign of
pressure. Since that was not the case, I came to the conclusion that
the entire system is wrong and based solely on self-delusion, and it
would be the best for the people to stay as far away from it as
possible.
But please, read my previous writing, this here is just an
abbreviation.

-- 
Web (Kundalini-yoga): http://danijel.cjb.net