Autor: dturina@geocities.com (Danijel Turina) Datum: 1999-09-11 14:35:57 Grupe: alt.religion.vaisnava Tema: The meaning of discussions Linija: 97 Message-ID: 37db44ba.14575949@news.tel.hr |
Before one enters a discussion, it is necessary to see one's motives for such an act; a discussion can be just an ego trip where participants pat each other on the head, acknowledging each other's rightfulness, discussing only about minor issues. The opposite possibility is a poisonous argument where participants feel personally attacked if their view is opposed or questioned, and such discussions can occasionally turn physically violent, to the point of murder. In ancient India, and other cultures like Japan, AFAIK, there was a custom of philosophical duels, where people entered discussions gladly, because it was a great privilege to be defeated. How come? Well, defeat was always voluntary, one would acknowledge defeat, and one does that only if he feels that he has met his superior, and that was a great thing, because it allowed one to grow from one's current position of realization. Therefore it is easy to understand why the defeated usually accepted the victorious party as his guru, accepting his viewpoint as his own. If one wasn't willing to admit defeat because of pride and arrogance, he lost a great deal of respect in his environment, because such qualities make one unacceptable as an intellectual, moral or religious authority. That's why there was practically no preaching: there were discussions, in which the arguments of both sides were displayed, and if a teaching was victorious, it was spreading, and if not, it would be abandoned. Often the entire philosophical schools were forgotten after a defeat in arguments with an opposing school - nobody would, quite understandably, voluntarily accept an inferior teaching. Such dogfights were, obviously, means of eliminating inferior philosophies, and through them a culture maintained a good spiritual health. If some philosophy wasn't able to provide good answers to the questions, it was extinct; today, all sorts of inferior philosophical systems exist because this method of elimination is abandoned. Most of the cults and religions that exist today wouldn't exist if they could be defeated philosophically in such manner. In one such clash of philosophies classical brahmanic hinduism was utterly defeated by buddhism. In other clash buddhism was defeated by Sankaracarya's atma-brahma-advaita vedanta, and was extinct from India. What were the arguments that were used in such discussions? From what I could put together, it was basically examples, pictures from either sastra or experience, or simply logical deduction and induction. It was the same kind of arguments that Jesus used to convey his point; as long as everyone thought that the point is valid, it was accepted as an argument. Often, two sides would just explain their view of the world, and each would see if the other side has a better explanation - some unclear points were argued, but the most important thing was to feel convinced. The basic motive for abandoning one's view of the world was the love of truth. Truth was given the highest value, and was cherished above all other things - sathya paramo dharmah. People were taught to be guided by their sense for truth, and if one felt the rightness of something, it was accepted. One doesn't have a philosophy to just brag with, it is seen as the means of attaining the highest goal, it is just an instrument, and on that path the instruments can be changed, the faulty ones can be abandoned and better ones can be acquired. The basic principle that has to be accepted before entering an argument is "the truth is most important to me". One's view has to be subdued to the truth, and the purpose of a discussion is to find the truth. What is the best way of "preaching"? You ask someone to talk to you about God, religion or whatever. You let him explain his position, and then you explain yours. You ask each other questions, like, "how does your system explain this:...". Even if nobody wins, everybody will benefit, because new things to think about will arise, new questions will be asked, questions that will have to be answered. If they can't be answered properly, there must be a problem somewhere, and that's something to work on. There are always two really good questions: "what is the highest goal", and "how much of that highest goal have I attained". That's the reality check, simply those two questions. If those questions are asked regularly, suddenly it will become very difficult to pass a dysfunctional personality as someone spiritually developed. What I would like to know is, how many of this newsgroup's participants would be willing to really test their philosophy? Defend it, each and every part of it, and reject everything that they can't defend, and accept something that makes more sense? I already tried to start a discussion based on several starting positions, which could evolve into an interesting exchange. I made a few deliberate mistakes that were never seen, and I didn't feel like discussing with myself and finding my own logical flaws - I expected others to do that. But nothing happened, there was no discussion, nothing, zero, nada, zip, vacuum. If I disregard a couple of guys who thought that the attempts to verbally insult me will score them points and have the girls in the audience cheer for them. There were some people who said that they would want to prove me wrong, if they had time, but as time passes nothing seems to happen, except a few traditional flames between two groups of Prabhupada's disciples, who indulge in name calling and dramatical statements. |