"Sundarananda Dasa"  wrote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Premananda Dasa
Member   posted 09-19-1999 04:49 AM           
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Premananda, why do you think I would ever want to answer anything you
>>have to say? Every time I tried to have a conversation with you, it
>>was completely useless, because you don't know anything and you are
>>extremely arrogant and offensive. But hope is eternal, so I write.
>
>Danijel, it wasn´t I who started being arrogant and offensive.

Yes you were.

>>>And what or who is God ?
>>
>>Acintya nirguna, sat-cit-ananda.
>
>And what does that mean in English?

Beyond gnosis (comprehension is a good translation: God is beyond
comprehension), of no qualities (that which is the foundation of all
qualities has no quality, since all quality is given within it, and
none without it. This is a basic definition of the absolute, as the
uncaused primordial cause and source of all qualities which transcends
them all). Being-consciousness-bliss, one quality which can be
perceived as all three: being that is consciousness and bliss,
consciousness that is being and bliss, bliss that is consciousness and
being, one quality that can be described by all three qualities, and
is perceived in triputibedha, unity of the observer, observation and
the observed, which is nirvikalpa samadhi. Practically, this is how a
relative being can perceive the Absolute and still come back to tell
about it.

>>>I suppose you know all the people in the world, and their hearts, who
>>>are chanting Hare Krishna, and therefore know that the result is
>>>'pathetic'
>>
>>I don't have to, I'm talking to those with pathetic results.
>
>You said that the method of chanting Harinama 'sucks'. Are you changing your
>mind now?

Why should I, I gave solid evidence that was never disproved, and the
evidence says that something is seriously wrong. Either you're doing
it wrong, in which case you'll improve and prove me wrong, or it's
inherently flawed as a method, in which case it should be abandoned
for something better. So far I didn't see deep intuition here,
recognition of deep states of consciousness for which I gave the
clues. You also didn't come even close to reading my motives, or
figuring me out. Therefore I have no reason to suspect that you have
developed any spiritual qualities with your practice.

>>>Absolute truth is never an object, but it is the Supersubject.
>>
>>This is completely irrelevant to the discussion. But with this you
>>just buried dvaita; I didn't know you're from Sankaracarya's lineage.
>>;)
>
>I did not. In fact I did just the opposite!

Let me demonstrate it for you. If the Absolute is the supersubject, it
is the inherent reality of all beings. From that we come to the
conclusion that atman (an individual soul) is in its nature in fact
brahman (the Absolute). Since in Absolute there is no division (since
division implies relation), there is only One Self in all beings, and
its division is due to the relative sphere of existence (maya). In
maya there are upadhis (limitations) projected upon atman which create
the appearance of multitude, like one moon reflects on many cups of
water. The division is not within the moon, which is one, but in the
sphere of reflections. So the true self, atman, is in fact the moon,
not the individual reflections in the cups. Destruction of a cup does
not influence the existence of the moon.
That is practically pure Sankaracarya, plus some Upanisads.

>Singing and reciting Harinama indeed universal. In all religions there are
>songs of praise and prayers in which God´s Name is recited and sung.
>What is important to understand here Danijel is that if one doesn´t practice
>properly the desired result will not be attained.
>If one is committing nama-aparadha one will never chant the Name proper.

You repeat yourself. If one doesn't chant properly one can't be saved,
therefore the power of the method is limited. It is limited to those
who can chant without offense, and since only the enlightened ones can
chant without offence, only they can benefit from it. Therefore we can
safely say that as a method of enlightening the unenlightened the
method is inefficient. Is that what you're saying?
If you, on the contrary, say that its power is unlimited, how come
there are no adequate results?

>Exactly. It´s the same with the chanting of Harinama. You know, everybody
>who becomes a member of ISKCON for example isn´t near enlightenment, there
>are persons who are on different levels of spiritual advancement.

Of course, but it is said that yoga is a process, though which one is
purified; one goes from impurity to purity, from imperfect to perfect.
One can't go from nothing to something, yoga can fan a tiny flame of
mumuksutva (desire of liberation) into a raging fire of enlightenment,
but it can't create the initial flame, it has to come from the person,
it is the basic motivation. Those who have that flame can either find
a good technique and become enlightened, or find a bad technique and
become ruined, or simply stagnate. If a technique is successful in
enlightening those who are qualified (adhikari), then it can be
accepted as good, otherwise it should be renounced. There are
different techniques, for different stages of the path. For someone
who has no desire for liberation (who doesn't feel God within and
doesn't feel a desire to go back to him), a technique must be made
that will evolve the person to the degree of feeling such desire, and
pointing the inner view to God. When the inner view is pointed to God,
and there is a desire to realize God, that person can be called a yoga
student (adhama adhikari). Through practice of connection with God
within, one is purified further, to a degree of an advanced student
(madhyama adhikari), and then to a degree of a realized student
(uttama adhikari). Then as he is completely emerged in God, and all
impurities are annihilated through practice, such person becomes a
master of yoga (yogiraja/yogesvara). Such master can initiate students
and convey his/her vision to them, and thus continue the lineage.
Without such a completely realized master, enlightenment is extremely
difficult and can be attained only by a few.

>(snip)
>
>>>Wrong Danijel.
>>>God´s Name identical with Him and Her.
>>
>>Prove it. If you do, you'll bury your technique, as I did before with
>>the same argument.
>
>AAAAAAAAAAALready have, dude, if you had intelligence you would have
>understood by now.

:))) You just can't see when you're defeated, can you?

>>Do you have any personal experience to back that up with? I hate
>>writing from experience with people who throw quotes from books at me.
>
>I am happy to hear that you are so advanced, 

Is that an attempt of irony?

>and I don´t want to discuss my
>experiences with you Danijel.

Then be silent and say not the things you can't back up.

>>>>You can call my Dad in his office, too, if that will make you happy.
>>>
>>>Hehehe, I don´t think you understand that sentence Danijel.
>>
>>I don't think you understand humor. You should try it, it's good for
>>health. It's also a quality of those who have a full heart. It just
>>overflows and all the fun comes out. :)
>
>Danijel, that wasn´t nice. If you are so enlightened, why are you being so
>mean?

Read back through the archives and find out how many dozens of insults
and verbal abuse I've taken from you with smiles. You just sent more,
and the obvious way to tell you that I don't want more is to send some
back and let you taste your own medicine. So either start behaving
like a decent human critter, or go smurf yourself. 

>By the way, your 'joke' wasn´t funny at all.

De gustibus non disputandum est.

>Nope. Even chanting Nama-abhasa will be beneficial. The mercy of the Name
>and associating with Vaishnavas will work for everybody who has faith
>(sraddha). One doesn´t have to be enlightened or pure for the method to
>work.

:) Here we go again. Why then are you saying that everybody who failed
did so because they weren't pure enough?

>>My basic meditation and Angelique's grounding exercise can awaken the
>>heart to the fullest after just minutes of practice, if not the first
>>time, then the second, if you _have_ a heart to be awakened, and if
>>you are willing to surrender to the method without limitations, that's
>>the only condition.
>
>You seem to lack spiritual knowledge when writing 'if you _have_ a heart'.

If someone doesn't have a developed mental body (the one that is
associated with the main level of the heart chakra), no method for
opening the heart will work. You would probably say that such people
don't have the taste for the love of God.

Don't be so quick with your conclusions, it isn't a wise strategy to
start a sentence with a conclusion about me, and then back it up with
just a guess, which is actually wrong. It is better to just ask "what
did you mean by that?", like ordinary, non-vaisnava folks do, the ones
who have manners and education and basic human decency that is
required in a serious discussion about matters such as God and
enlightenment. English is my second language, and I still manage to
form sentences in a way that will hopefully never be pointed against
the person, since it is rude and abusive and it displays a clear lack
of tact.

>Who is Angelique?

The owner of the Kundalini mailing list and a dear personal friend.

-- 
Web (Kundalini-yoga): http://danijel.cjb.net