X-Ftn-To: Gwailoh-9 

Gwailoh-9  wrote:
>>I find it theoretically impossible, because drugs alter the lower
>>levels, the physical matter of the body and cerebral prana. 
>
>theories, so what?  At one point, theory said that a bumble-bee can't
>fly, too much mass & not aerodymic.  And yet, we all see them flying

Hm. Allow me to explain.
You have, of course, seen heated air, over a hot car roof in summer,
or above asphalt, or in a desert? It vibrates, fluctuates, it is in
constant buzz and motion. It doesn't allow you to see far, or with
accuracy. Well, this is the same effect that I can see in people who
use drugs, it's like trying to see something through kilometers of
heated air. Yoga is supposed to manage the exact opposite, to calm
down those fluctuations and create perfect stillness, in order for a
person to be able to perceive anything subtle. This is why I think
it's theoretically impossible for drugs to produce genuine spiritual
visions of a high order. 
But, now it comes to my mind that all things come to our physical mind
through some cerebral activities - including the spiritual
experiences. Now, in the right circumstances, it is conceivable that
even electrical stimulation of the cortex, or some chemical substance,
could trigger a response on the physical plane, that would get a
person in touch with some higher level. I've heard of experiments
where scientists electrically stimulated a part of human brain and
produced religious visions similar to the near-death experiences. So,
I don't know, it's possible that some drug can do that, but I never
saw this in practice, it's just a theory of mine, and I could be
wrong. I did, however, have the opportunity to see how MJ and XTC
create more noise, instead of calming it down.

>>> snip. ..  It depends on what you call spiritual. Some people experience
>>aliens talking to them, and call this spiritual experience. Some talk
>>to their grandmother's ghost, and call that spiritual. Some get high
>>on MJ and say that they experience God's love. Some take LSD and say
>>that they are everything. 
>
>yes right, good point, it is important for us all to be using the same
>definitions.   ... maybe this is a way at pointing at a cultural
>problem, a of valuing Eastern Spiritual Theory over (and at the
>expense of) Shamanistic experience?   

Maybe, I don't know. I'm kinda skeptical about shamanism, it looks to
me like they're messing up with the lower astral, and that it has
little to do with the elated experiences of hinduism, buddhism or
christian mysticism.

>>But, if you know how to look, you can see _where_ their experiences
>>take place, you can see how their higher bodies behave, and after
>>you've seen some cases, well, you decide that drugs are simply a
>>nuisance.
>
>well, i can't really argue with that.  you've got this talent &
>experience, and i don't.  sure wish i did though!  

Actually, it's just practice, not a very big deal. Those abilities
come as a side-effect of yogic practice; some of my students are even
better at this than myself.

>>It's simply harmful and has no good sides. 
>
>medically is a wonderful pain-killer, which a very valuable property

Probably, if you're in a state of terminal cancer and you don't mind
the addiction and brain damage.

>>It drains the dopamine from the brain and permanently destroys the capacity for experiencing
>>bliss. That's why the first experience with heroin is the most
>>powerful; gradually, the effect decreases, and after a while you have
>>to take it just to be normal, not to get "high". 
>
>but 'permanently' might be going a bit far hey?  I don't know anything
>about dopamine.  (a neurotransmitter.  there, thats about all)

I think it's like squeezing an orange; you do get some juice, but once
you do it, you can hardly recharge the orange. I think it could be
possible to reverse certain extents of damage, though. 

>I do know opiates plug-in to the endorphin receptors.  And if brain is
>getting free endorphins, it doesn't bother to make any of its own, so
>that is why you need to keep taking it to feel high -> fell normal ->
>not feel bad.  That process _is_ reversable.

I don't think it's about producing anything new, it's about depleting
brain's reserves and destroying the receptors, so they become less and
less sensitive to the similar chemicals. Basically, it's like killing
your eyes with too much light.

>>At this stage, you're an empty shell that was once a human being.
>
>But there's many ex-addicts out there who have 'regained their
>humanity' though, thankfully!  Plus, I can sure tell you're not a
>street social-worker ;-) [joke]

Nope. :)

>knowledge isn't much either!  I haven't looked into the science (or
>anything) of opiates in very much depth.  I'm sure it is quite likely
>there are more serious effects i don't know about.  

Yes, I'm certain that there are; I read some articles about it, but I
didn't go in depth, unfortunately.

>>>I'd be really surprised if
>>>you found he was another spiritually-dead zombie.   
>>
>>Actually, I saw some "renowned spiritual teachers", like Sai Baba or
>>Maheswarananda, and none of them looked impressive at all. Most of my
>>friends are more enlightened than they.
>
>I haven't heard of Maheswarananda, but i have heard of Sai Baba.
>There are/were many of his worshippers here in Australia.  I think he
>has been conclusively proven to be a con-man.  He was reknowned for
>'manifesting' gifts - he would pull 'Holy Ash' or rings or necklaces
>'from out of the air' ... and give them to his worshippers.  Really
>blew their minds.  But it has been captured on video that he was just
>a magician, he was pulling them out of his sleeves.  

Yes. It seems that he's also a pedophile.
Interestingly, though, I did see an enlightened person in his
ashram... a 12-year old girl from Himachal Pradesh, who came with her
parents and helped in the female part of the western canteen. 

>I saw the footage in a great tv documentary on the guru-busting
>'Indian Rationalist' group, a bunch of hard-thinking skeptics who are
>trying to rid India of manipulative con-artist guru's.

Actually, I think that those guys are fanatics. They are against cons,
true, but I think that they're against God, as well. They resemble the
19th century pro-scientific mentality on the west, when we still
thought that science will solve all our problems.

>>You sound like you really need that to be true. ... So, it's not that my 
>>experience is as limited as you think.
>
>i don't mean to say that in a shitty way Danijiel.  I'm not trying to
>depreciate your experiences.  I just mean look: i'm being presented
>with one internet-ghost saying he has this special insight &
>experiences with a number of people in his life.  (admittably a very
>special life, with this second-sight ability).  I haven't heard
>similar statements (astral ripping etc) anywhere else before.

Well, I have, it's not at all that uncommon... you can subscribe to
the kundalini-gateway list, http://www.kundalini-gateway.org , and if
you ask them, they'll probably have many similar stories to tell. Some
of them had experiences that are strange even by my standards. :) When
you eliminate the kooks, you'll still get a significant number of
folks who can see auras better than I can.

>But then I have to weigh that up against the other side of the story,
>which is the weight of many, many scholerly books on this subject, the
>opinions of widely known & respected intelligent men (like Ram Dass,
>Aldous Huxley, William James, Terence Mckenna, Jonathan Ott, etc), and
>yes, my own personal experiences.  not your problem to deal with, its
>mine.  But you see how i can have trouble with just taking your word
>on this matter to be my guiding light?

Well, it isn't just _my_ word, after all, there was a quote from Ravi
Shankar who had experiences very similar to mine, you know... that's
how I jumped into the thread.

>And, "Do i really need this to be true" you ask?
>
>Well yes, i suppose i have invested a lot of energy into developing a
>generally positive opinion this big subject('drugs').  So naturally, i
>would have a bias and resistance to throwing it all onto the garbage.

Of course, I understand that. And, I'm not _necessarily_ against all
drugs, it's just that I never saw any positive effects from them on
anyone. I did hear some people say that they got their first
experiences of cosmic consciousness from LSD, though, but those people
didn't impress me as much as the folks who got even greater
experiences in a natural way. It _is_ something, though.

>But i believe i can, and do, recognize this.  I don't see myself as
>steadfastly ignoring all negative opinions & data on the subject.
>I've already given the original poster (pinch hitta) my thoughts,
>which was to trust the advice of several experienced Yogis, and give
>away the habitual use of marijuana, or at least try this and see what
>changes.  That is not blindly holding on to a 'drugs are good'
>position.  (not that you clearly accused me of such).

Well, I think we're having a pretty nice conversation here; some of
the stuff really makes me think, and this is good. 

>>But, let me tell you a story:
>>My wife was formerly a prominent member of the "techno community" in
>>Croatia. She smoked pot and took XTC; she even took it the night
>>before the day I first met her; 
>
>so i gather she was a drug abuser, not a responsible user.  

No, I didn't say that. She smoked MJ every now and then - not very
often, though - and she used XTC only about four or five times in her
life. Still, it was enough to cause serious havoc.

>Also not at all
>surprising that after one year _without_ psychoactive drug abuse, and
>*with* yoga, your help & concentration-work that her mental state is
>better than ever.  (congratulations by the way, good news!)

:) Thankyou. Although, it is my opinion that this recovery can be
contributed solely to yogic practice; I know a friend of hers, who was
also taking the stuff, and stopped about the same time, and whose
memory and concentration are still very much impaired - she didn't
practice Kundalini-yoga. So, it seems that one has to work very hard
to recover, and you can easily imagine that this energy could be
better used to further enhance a healthy mind, than to fix
artificially created damage. Energetic yoga is powerful, but it's
hardly omnipotent, and it's my opinion that one should take really
good care of his body, because it's damaged more easily than repaired.
Just four or five damn pills took more than a year of healing. 

>>I could see the effect in her brain
>>better than you can see the monitor in front of you, while you read
>>this. I countered that effect, and in spite of that I raised her
>>consciousness so much, that she spontaneously performed kecari mudra
>>and kevala kumbhaka in combination, at the table in the bar where we
>>had coffee - just because I extended my consciousness within her.
>
>again, very cool!  you are lucky Danijiel, this sounds incredible!

Yes, incredibly good. :)

-- 
Homepage: http://www.danijel.org