X-Ftn-To: jesse l nowells 

jesse l nowells  wrote:
>> This is a good example of bad logic, because you defined "The
>> Universe" as the primary reality. Doing that, you implied
>> non-existence of God, ...
>
>Saying the "Universe" is all that exists, does not *necessarily* imply
>that god doesn't exist. It doesn't necessarily follow that god couldn't
>create god's self. 

True. Actually, if you define God as eternal, then he can't be
created, by definition, and a question "who created God" is a logical
fallacy.

>> 1. There is the most fundamental layer of the reality.
>> 2. This fundamental layer is either God, or the Universe, as we know
>> it.
>> 3. If this Universe has the reality index of n, and n-1 exists, n-1
>> might or might not be God, depending on whether n-1=0, or not.
> 
>What if the universe & god are one & the same? 

This implies nonexistence of God.

>> For a good disproof of the existence of God, you would need to prove
>> that this Universe is the most fundamental layer of the reality, or,
>> that n = 0. This cannot be done, because it isn't; this Universe came
>> to be at some point, and before that, the more fundamental layer of
>> the reality existed. 
>
>The universe was defined above as everything that exists. What if there is
>an infinitude of layers?

There can be, but, you always have total reality and total illusion as
poles, between which something can exist.

>> Another problem with your definition 1 is the implicit premise that
>> "we perceive all that exists, and this doesn't include God". Actually,
>> we perceive only a small portion of the physical universe, which is
>> not a very good basis for conclusions about the origin of the entirety
>> of all physical existence (which is then, by definition,
>> non-physical).
>
>I don't know but I don't see any implicit premise in the premise "The
>Universe is all that exists" that "We perceive all that exists, & this
>doesn't include god". The presumption above is that if god created
>everything, it's impossible that god created god. But there is no real
>contradiction there. 

Think about it. It is implied that everything that exists is subject
to causation, or, that it was created. Since any good definition of
God says that he isn't subject to causation, this implies that "all
that exists" doesn't include God, QED.

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