X-Ftn-To: Dharmadeva

"Dharmadeva" wrote:
>"Danijel Turina" wrote in message
>> Distinctions are not a problem; limitations are. It's OK to classify
>> people into castes,
>
>Once there is classification of this type it will inevitably be used as a
>social tool of exploitation.

Of course it can. That's why every employer will ask for a candidate's
qualifications. You can't be employed as a lawyer if you haven't
studied law. That's the way things work. But, what I'm saying is, if
nobody prevents you from studying law, then what's the problem? You
don't have to become a lawyer, but you can. If you want to become one,
you have to prove you're capable. The same applies for medicine,
architecture, programming, military skills etc.

>Who is doing the classifying and why. This
>same argument was used to support slavery!!

Yes, and the argument of equality was used in communism. So what?

> as long as those classifications are flexible, and
>> one is allowed to choose by his own preference.
>
>Then why impose social classifications at all

Who said anything about imposing? I said that the social
classifications exist, and that it's OK, because people are different,
and different people have different interests and preferences.

>> >But for persons to teach yoga and say they are of brahmin caste is
>creating
>>
>> But, he _should_ be, of course.
>
>No he/she should not be.

Aha, so you want to say that one should not be spiritually inclined in
order to teach yoga? Or you just don't know the definition of
"brahmana"?

>A yogi is one who renders service to the world.
>Not one who imposes superiority complexes to justify their own position

I think that you just repeat something somebody told you, without
understanding, like a parrot.

>>Honestly, would you accept a merchant
>> as your guru, or would you prefer someone more spiritually inclined?
>
>I would obviously accept a proper guru as guru.
>You equate guru with
>brahmin there is not such link to be made.

OK, so you want to say that you would want somebody with brahmanic
qualification, but without brahmanic label.
What's the problem with the label?

>> did see you criticise a combination of merchant's mentality and
>> spiritual activity, you know.
>
>Exploitation by vaeshyans (capitalists) is of course wrong as is any
>exploitation - including that of priests.

Who said anything about exploitation? I said that the guru position is
possible only when one meets the criteria inherent to the definition
of brahmana - in other words, that his only goal in life are the
highest spiritual values. You are constantly mixing issues.

>So you _are_ saying that one _must_ be a
>> qualified brahmana in order to teach spirituality. The rest is just a
>> matter of form.
>
>One must be a qualified spiritualists. being a brahmin has nothing to do
>with it.

:)))))))))) I might be repeating myself, but you obviously don't know
what the word means. Let me explain, then. "Brahmana" is the one whose
consciousness has the quality of brahman, the supreme truth and
reality. His consciousness is always focused on brahman, emerged in
brahman, and therefore he is called brahmana. Only brahmana can confer
spiritual realization upon others, and therefore every true guru must
be brahmana. Things clearer now?

>So let us break these bondages of caste, first of all.

:))))
You sound like you're repeating some script.
Are you, by some strange chance, the same guy from Australia who was
into Anandamurti (I hope I remembered it right) and his
"neo-humanism", or whatever, who was writing so many boring monologues
to the Kundalini-list that he was expelled by Angelique? The only
person, ever, to suffer such ignoble faith? Who then attempted to
mail-bomb the list in revenge, and had the account locked, if my
memory serves me well?
It was a long time ago, but you sound exactly the same. I remember
that he was constantly trying to preach without ever stopping to
listen, constantly trying to prove something. You _can't_ be that same
guy, that was years ago. Nobody would sing the _same_ tune for so
long. It would be utterly boring. ;>

But then again, preaching has a way of preventing people to look into
themselves and face the things that are there, and that can be a very
powerful motive for keeping up the deaf monologue...

--
Homepage: http://www.danijel.org

X-Ftn-To: Dharmadeva

"Dharmadeva" wrote:
>No one saying that we are all the same. But distinctions based on caste are
>illegitimate.

Distinctions are not a problem; limitations are. It's OK to classify
people into castes, as long as those classifications are flexible, and
one is allowed to choose by his own preference. So, what I want to say
is that it's OK to classify someone as a warrior as long as it is by
_his_ choice, and not by force, or inherited.

>But for persons to teach yoga and say they are of brahmin caste is creating

But, he _should_ be, of course. Honestly, would you accept a merchant
as your guru, or would you prefer someone more spiritually inclined? I
did see you criticise a combination of merchant's mentality and
spiritual activity, you know. So you _are_ saying that one _must_ be a
qualified brahmana in order to teach spirituality. The rest is just a
matter of form.

>Mental/psyhcological analysis and classification is fine. Social
>exploitation is not.

But of course, that was not in question.

--
Homepage: http://www.danijel.org

X-Ftn-To: Dharmadeva

"Dharmadeva" wrote:
>"Danijel Turina" wrote in message
>news:ir25etk3qjed4hpqahfqbm9fsuh8q79r0r@4ax.com...
>> X-Ftn-To: Tracy Miller
>> > I think you're right... with all those guys insisting that "yoga is
>> not a religion" and that there's "nothing mystical about yoga",
>
>There is everything mystical, but mysticism does not imply religion.
>Religion and spirituality DO NOT EQUATE. Things can be spiritual but not
>religious.

Well, if you define religion as a belief system without any spiritual
foundation, then I of course agree. Unfortunately, religions are
usually just that.

>> what
>> you noticed seems inevitable, unfortunately. It reminds me of a guy
>> here in Croatia, who calls himself Makaja, and advertises his
>> "tantric" classes as a way to learn 8-hour long orgasms.
>
>These people are the worst exploiters.

I don't believe that. I think that this guy was just short sighted,
and doesn't understand the functioning of human mind.

>> He said that
>> he's very clever: he'll attract people with something mundane, and
>> when they begin the practice, their spiritual taste will awaken and
>> they'll get deeper into the practice.
>
>If there minds are degenerated to the mundane the approach of this exploiter
>is anti-dharmic and will make it harder for the mind to elevate itself.
>
>You can take a course on sex through agabaga.com for only $210.

Oh, compared to Makaja it's very cheap, he charges ten times that
much. :) And, mind you, he _does_ teach people lots about sex, it's
just that he doesn't teach them much about spirituality, or, about
spirituality that's beyond masturbating heart chakra into constant
radiation. I believe that most of his students think that they got
good value for their money. After all, he _did_ focus primarily on sex
and energetic purification, and his technique looks much more
convincing than for instance 3HO.

>Just like a generic drug for those who can't afford the patented version.
>
>It works like this if you are wealthier you will pay more for the same drug.

It's not that simple. From this position, I'd actually have to defend
the guy, he's not selling ordinary sex, he's working on
susumna-anahata purification and on cleansing the pranic-astral-mental
vertical. He _does_ have good results there, I saw his students.
They're not deeply initiated, but they are in a much better condition
than for instance Hari Har Singh. They are taught to open the susumna
nadi and to radiate bliss through the heart chakra for hours and days
in a row, and then they progress to the crown chakra. The crown energy
that they radiate is so powerful that their hair goes gray from it.
He's not a cheat, but it all lacks the deep spiritual component. Look
at http://www.komaja.org for details... personally, I find it utterly
disgusting, but you'll not easily guess why. Most people on this group
would probably find it all loving, spiritual and wonderful, judging on
their reaction to other shallow hypocrites.

--
Homepage: http://www.danijel.org

X-Ftn-To: Dharmadeva

"Dharmadeva" wrote:
>Apparently some yoga organisatons and groups implicitly suggest that they
>still adhere to the exploitative notion of casteism.
>
>Eg Iyengars still wears the Brahmin thread
>
>Yoga in Daily Life defines 'shudra' (proletariat or worker) in terms of
>placement in a caste.
>
>The slightest notion of casteism is anti-human and immoral. It is
>exploitative and should be vanquished from the face of the earth.

Not necessarily. You know, people _are_ different, and their social
positions are most often only a reflection of their differences, not
the other way around. Classifying someone as "worker" or "warrior"
isn't anti-human. It's anti-human to say that we're all the same. It's
also exploitative and should be vanquished from the face of the earth.
:)

--
Homepage: http://www.danijel.org

X-Ftn-To: Tracy Miller

tracym@pipeline.com (Tracy Miller) wrote:
>As a consequence, there is a whole
>different mindset in students of the martial arts than there would be
>in the original setting - that of a person who just wants to learn how
>to fight. The teachers aren't into any spiritual aspect, no
>meditation, they don't learn it, so their students don't either.
>
>I hope this does not happen to yoga. What might happen is that most
>people will end up doing yoga purely for physical reasons, without
>ever taking that farther step, if it gets divorced from the
>sprituality the way martial arts were.
>
>What do you guys think?

I think you're right... with all those guys insisting that "yoga is
not a religion" and that there's "nothing mystical about yoga", what
you noticed seems inevitable, unfortunately. It reminds me of a guy
here in Croatia, who calls himself Makaja, and advertises his
"tantric" classes as a way to learn 8-hour long orgasms. He said that
he's very clever: he'll attract people with something mundane, and
when they begin the practice, their spiritual taste will awaken and
they'll get deeper into the practice. The same rationale that I read
here on the NG.
It never happened. Instead, he collected all the people who were
interested only in better sex. Of course, they never did raise above
it. The initial contract didn't mention any of that "spiritual stuff",
and this contract is what determines the flow of the practice. That's
why honesty in advertising is of supreme importance. It must be a
transparent, WYSIWYG thing.

--
Homepage: http://www.danijel.org

X-Ftn-To: SLAP

"SLAP" wrote:
>> Ma to ti je zato jer su svi dosad ili odustali, ili te stavili na skip.
>Domchi
>
>Domchi,
>
>znam ja sto je ljudska znatizelja,u kojoj ima i dosta toga pozitivnog. No
>reci mi sto to znaci "na skip" ? Jel to neka tehnicka operacija na racunalu?

To je BBS-erski termin za killfile, samo sto je na BBSu to rijeseno
efikasnije. Kad nekog korisnika stavis na skip listu, sam BBS
isfiltrira njegove poruke tako da one ni ne dospiju u QWK paket koji
skidas offline, odnosno, ne znas je li taj korisnik ziv ili mrtav,
osim po citatima drugih korisnika.

I da, Domchi ima pravo, barem sto se mene tice, ja sam zakljucio da na
pizdarije koje pises nema smisla odgovarati. Ti ionako ne slusas nista
i samo brijes svoje koliko god da Ti se nesto proba dokazati, a
pisanje radi publike nema smisla, jer Te ionako nitko pametan ne
shvaca ozbiljno. Drugo je bilo s Kazimirom, on je lazljivac i zlocest,
pricao je bedastoce i neistine, ali je to cinio na takav nacin da mu
nije bilo lako dokazati sto radi, buduci da se izvjezbao u koristenju
logike za zamucivanje stvari. Za njega se trebalo potruditi pa fino
proci sve njegove "argumente", onako radi publike, pa su ljudi skuzili
da je prazan. Ti si druga prica, tako si ocigledno blesav da nisi
vrijedan zajebancije.

Doduse, koji puta ne mogu izdrzati pa se idem sprdati s neke gluposti
koju napises, cisto onako. Ista je situacija s Radenkom, covjek je
prihvatio Isusa i drzi ga solarnim avatarom i cim vec, ali Bibliju se
nije potrudio procitati jer je valjda sve o Isusu sto treba znati
naucio od Steinera i slicne bande. I sto onda raditi nego se s takvoga
sprdati.

--
Homepage: http://www.danijel.org

X-Ftn-To: Radenko

Radenko wrote:
>On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Danijel Turina wrote:
>> >> Naime, stvar je cista negacija svih magijskih principa.
>> >
>> >Da li nam je Bog zabranio slobodnu, osobnu volju?
>>
>> Ma ne radi se o tome da li bi trebao imati slobodnu volju ili ne, nego
>> o tome da li si dovoljno pametan da kuzis da Bog vec radi ono sto je
>> najpametnije i najbolje, pa bi bilo razumno prestati neki kurac
>> petljati i poceti slusati Boga za promjenu. O tome se radi. A jebem ti
>
>Ti mislish da je Bog Sam po Sebi (super)aktivan. Ja mislim da je pasivan
>ako Ga ne aktiviramo u sebi - vjerom, znanjem, praksom.

Aha, dakle Bog je kao neka energija, neosoban i neaktivan, a svijet
sam sobom upravlja. Super.

>> se u Tvoje krscanstvo kad ni tako elementarnu stvar nisi u stanju
>> skuziti. Daj si procitaj ono o pticama i ljiljanima, mozda Ti nesto
>> dodje do glave.
>
>
>Ti, Danijele stvarno imash puknut astral. Probaj ga zaljepit pivom.
>Objasni ovo o pticama i ljiljanjima. Ne znam o chemu govorish. Znam
>samo za Goetheovu prichu (bajku) "O Zelenoj zmiji i lijepoj Ljiljani"
>ali nisam nikad uspio prochitati....

Budalo. Idiote. Da si citao vise Bibliju nego Steinera i slicne
budalastine, cuo bi i za propovjed na gori:

(25) "Zato vam kažem: Ne budite zabrinuti za život svoj: što ?ete
jesti, što ?ete piti; ni za tijelo svoje: u što ?ete se obu?i. Zar
život nije vredniji od jela i tijelo od odijela?" (26) "Pogledajte
ptice nebeske! Ne siju, ne žanju niti sabiru u žitnice, pa ipak ih
hrani vaš nebeski Otac. Zar niste vi vredniji od njih? (27) A tko od
vas zabrinutoš?u može svome stasu dodati jedan lakat? (28) I za
odijelo što ste zabrinuti? Promotrite poljske ljiljane, kako rastu! Ne
mu?e se niti predu. (29) A kažem vam: ni Salomon se u svoj svojoj
slavi ne zaodjenu kao jedan od njih. (30) Pa ako travu poljsku, koja
danas jest a sutra se u pe? baca, Bog tako odijeva, ne?e li još više
vas, malovjerni?" (31) "Nemojte dakle zabrinuto govoriti: 'Što ?emo
jesti?' ili: 'Što ?emo piti?' ili: 'U što ?emo se obu?i?' (32) Ta sve
to pogani ištu. Zna Otac vaš nebeski da vam je sve to potrebno. (33)
Tražite stoga najprije Kraljevstvo i pravednost njegovu, a sve ?e vam
se ostalo dodati. "
(Mt 6, 25-33)

>> Klasicna Tambekovska fora: prihvacas Isusa, a ono sto Isus prica je
>> manje bitno, to cemo vec nekako uklopiti u sustav, glavno da mi njega
>> prihvacamo. Sto ste sve nasrali na ovoj konfi o Isusu, to ni pas s
>
>
>To i nije za pse ;)

Nije ni za Tebe, ocigledno.

>> maslom ne bi pojeo, a elementarne aspekte njegovog naucavanja ne
>
>A kundalini je 'elementarni aspekt'?

Ne, to je jako napredni aspekt, elementarni je taj da se ne treba
baviti magijom nego da se treba predati Bogu.

>> prihvacate, nego brijete na nekakvu magiju i Steinerovsko mrakovanje.
>
>.... Mir s Tobom

Jebi se.

--
Homepage: http://www.danijel.org

X-Ftn-To: Suzi

Suzi wrote:
>> Nece, ako prekine s ponavljanjem istih gresaka, ali, naravno, to je
>> malo vjerojatno, buduci da se ljudi jako drze svojih navika, makar i
>> krivih.
>
>dobro.
>U svijetlu onog sto sam pitala, to znaci da se nasljedne (genetske)
>bolesti mogu na neki nacin "izlijeciti".
>Sto je onda sa potomstvom?

Ne, nisi skuzila. U toj inkarnaciji se ne promijeni nista time sto se
astral dovede u red. Fizicko tijelo ostaje sjebano, i trebala bi
ogromna snaga duha da ga dovede u red, tako da je to iznimna
rijetkost. Cesce se desava samo to da u slijedecoj inkarnaciji takav
vise ne sjebava fizicko tijelo, odnosno, rodi se fizicki zdrav. Sto se
trenutne inkarnacije tice, to spada u "ocitovanu karmu", slicno kao i
boja ociju, spol i slicne stvari. Ono, ako si nisi u stanju snagom
volje promijeniti spol, onda si po svoj prilici nisi u stanju ni
natjerati nogu da izraste, ako si se rodila bez nje. Ali, ako se
usmjeris na pravi nacin, u slijedecoj inkarnaciji ces imati suprotni
spol, odnosno, dvije noge, ovisno o primjeru.

>> Kaj je to isto po onom sistemu "idemo se baviti pomaganjem drugima jer
>> je lakse"?
>
>( !!!!! a grrrrrr :))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) )

A je? ;)))

--
Homepage: http://www.danijel.org

X-Ftn-To: Suzi

Suzi wrote:
>hmmm, po ovome onda ispada da je to situacija iz koje nema izlaza.
>Naime, ako osteceno astralno tijelo "pokusava" formirati fizicko tijelo sa istim ili
>slicnim deformacijama kao prethodno, svaka slijedeca inkarnacija rezultirati ce
>deformacijama.

Nece, ako prekine s ponavljanjem istih gresaka, ali, naravno, to je
malo vjerojatno, buduci da se ljudi jako drze svojih navika, makar i
krivih.
A ostecenja na astralu se mogu prilicno brzo i lako popraviti
predanoscu Bogu i kajanjem, da bas sad ne reklamiram kriyu. :)

>a na koji nacin ce "sjebane dushe" dobiti sansu za promjenom?

Dobijaju one citavo vrijeme sansu za sansom, ali ih redom odbijaju.
Zato i jesu sjebane.

>> Sve u svemu, kad netko hoce zaceti dijete, treba moliti Boga da mu
>> posalje dusu koja ce biti na dobrobit svijeta. Mrakovima ne treba
>> dopustiti da se inkarniraju.
>
>ma ja sam vjecni optimista :)
>nekako se nadam da ce se i mrakovima u jednoj inkarnacija "upaliti lampica" .

Kaj je to isto po onom sistemu "idemo se baviti pomaganjem drugima jer
je lakse"?
Mozda im se upali, mozda ne, ali to je isto kao i sa bacanjem smeca u
prirodu. Mozda ce se ono jednom razgraditi, a mozda nas prije toga
zatrpa i unisti. Tako i mrakovi, mozda se oni srede, a mozda uniste
svijet do kocena prije toga. Ja bih ipak bio sklon ograniciti pruzanje
drugih prilika do nekakve razumne mjere, pa kad se ustanovi da od
takvoga nece biti nista, zbrisati ga.

--
Homepage: http://www.danijel.org

X-Ftn-To: Radenko

Radenko wrote:
>> Naime, stvar je cista negacija svih magijskih principa.
>
>Da li nam je Bog zabranio slobodnu, osobnu volju?

Ma ne radi se o tome da li bi trebao imati slobodnu volju ili ne, nego
o tome da li si dovoljno pametan da kuzis da Bog vec radi ono sto je
najpametnije i najbolje, pa bi bilo razumno prestati neki kurac
petljati i poceti slusati Boga za promjenu. O tome se radi. A jebem ti
se u Tvoje krscanstvo kad ni tako elementarnu stvar nisi u stanju
skuziti. Daj si procitaj ono o pticama i ljiljanima, mozda Ti nesto
dodje do glave.
Klasicna Tambekovska fora: prihvacas Isusa, a ono sto Isus prica je
manje bitno, to cemo vec nekako uklopiti u sustav, glavno da mi njega
prihvacamo. Sto ste sve nasrali na ovoj konfi o Isusu, to ni pas s
maslom ne bi pojeo, a elementarne aspekte njegovog naucavanja ne
prihvacate, nego brijete na nekakvu magiju i Steinerovsko mrakovanje.

U krajnjoj liniji, nije Bog zabranio ni vragu da bude vrag, pa opet to
ne znaci da to odobrava.

--
Homepage: http://www.danijel.org